Curse

Narcism · May 31, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Put Avatar of Melandru on there.. for something.. anything, and it gets on my list.

Living Parasite · May 31, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Good list. Think you overnerfed some thing but who cares, better to have useless skills than OP skills.

Wasteland Squidget · May 31, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

Put Avatar of Melandru on there.. for something.. anything, and it gets on my list.

The (substantial) nerf to Wearying Strike is effectively a Melandru nerf. I don't think it needs to be hit harder than that.

Nuclear Eclipse · May 31, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Pretty lame... "these are skills that make me loose and I don't use, nerf plz"...

Melody Cross · May 31, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Guardian doesn't hit 50% until 15 prot. Unless monks have started wearing superior runes, it can't really get up that high in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Assassin
*Reduce maximum Shadow Step distance from radar to earshot*

Too short for what it does and the character it was designed to work with. An armor buff to sins would be required or it'd be early Factions all over again: no one would touch the class. I don't disagree that Recall is overpowered for split builds. But earshot is just too short.

Other than that, I like this list. Any changes for Necro Elites? Do you think nerfing some of the over used skills will cut their overuse back?

Sorry if I'm behind the times; haven't PvPed in a few months.

Narcism is right, AoM is, was and--until they fix it--will be overpowered. I'd rather it reduced duration by a significant (50%?) amount and remove 1 condition per hit or cast rather than mess up every good split and condi build out there. Anet, please stop nerfing the HP buff, fix the problem with the skill! No Blind, no dazed, no cripple, no weakness? Is it any wonder why dervishes take it over just about any other elite?

GGs

PS: FYI Nuclear Eclipse. IQ can sorta be attributed with inventing the 2SPsin/WoRrit split. I'm sure at one point or another Ensign has played with builds that use or used the skills himself. All of them!

gasmaskman · May 31, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclear Eclipse

Pretty lame... "these are skills that make me loose and I don't use, nerf plz"...

More like "these skills are imba and everyone plays them because theyre so powerful, nerf plz." And last time I checked Ensign is better than you.

I'd say just revert the channeling line back to before everything was changed to "within earshot of a spirit" because that's when it saw a massive imba-ness.

Raven Nebula · May 31, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Nerf the burning arrow build. They tried to nerf natural stride, but failed. Nerf either burning arrow itself, or apply poison. Make people use a different prep and a different elite (yes, i know some people run crip or broad head, but most people don't).

Nerf the ele buffs.

Nerf reapers mark.

And as much as I hate to say it, nerf RC or LoD.

Nurse With Wound · May 31, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclear Eclipse

Pretty lame... "these are skills that make me loose and I don't use, nerf plz"...

I have an advice. Why dont you stop trolling and actually read the thread before posting? You might learn something from Ensign's posts. Consider this a friendly warning. Further attempts at trolling this thread will be deleted. Only serious discussion in here.

fenix · May 31, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Nebula

Nerf the burning arrow build. They tried to nerf natural stride, but failed. Nerf either burning arrow itself, or apply poison. Make people use a different prep and a different elite (yes, i know some people run crip or broad head, but most people don't).

Nerf the ele buffs.

Nerf reapers mark.

And as much as I hate to say it, nerf RC or LoD.

Nerfing Burning Arrow or Apply would be fine...but there's no other good elites to use. Except of course Cripshot and Broadhead, and a couple more, like RaO or whatever.

Ele buffs don't need nerfing...

Reapers WAS nerfed...but poorly. It should last less than 30 seconds.

RC or LoD don't need nerfing, they're fine. They are pretty much perfect for elites.

Ensign · May 31, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Perfect list. But you forgot some skills...

Wielder's Strike, Spirit Burn and Spirit Rift.

Yes. I forgot those. Will edit them in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

One skill is an elite and you want the duration to scale with an non-elite that has an energy reduction from 25 to 15 energy which is the same as the elite skill?

Meh, leave the energy alone then. I hate 20 second daze. Leave the energy reduction for another thread talking about buffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Sorry in advance if i misread this part, oh and why no monks skills?

There are no Monk skills in need of a nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

I'd pretty much go with Ensign's list, however in addition I'd like to see Faintheartedness as a 2 second cast and holy veil at 8r.

Faint at 2s cast would still be good, why not hit that too. I'd like to see hex buffs as well, but, wrong thread.

Peace,
-CxE

v for Valkier · May 31, 2007, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Ranger
Broad Head Arrow: 4...10d
Concussion Shot: 4...10d, 15e

Way too powerful Concussion Shot. Daze is already the most dangerous condition in the game, and making it spammable would make rangers way too powerful. Just imagine a ranger splitting off, you can pretty much say GG to any caster you come up against.

Melody Cross · May 31, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by v for Valkier

Way too powerful Concussion Shot. Daze is already the most dangerous condition in the game, and making it spammable would make rangers way too powerful. Just imagine a ranger splitting off, you can pretty much say GG to any caster you come up against.

Its so powerful because it lasts so long. Reducing duration would make the condition itself less powerful.

Sir fredman · May 31, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

They should have a PvP nerf and a PvE nerf, to stop people complaining.
discuss

Nuclear Eclipse · May 31, 2007, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

I have an advice. Why dont you stop trolling and actually read the thread before posting? You might learn something from Ensign's posts. Consider this a friendly warning. Further attempts at trolling this thread will be deleted. Only serious discussion in here.

Actually I did read the thread... and the best explanation he offers to why they need to be nerfed is "they are garbage"... If anyone else posted a thread like this with no explanation, they'd be asked to explain themselves. So just because the letters of his name are black, doesn't mean he shouldn't provide an explanation either...

And that's the difference between whining and constructive posting. This post is whining, and if he or anyone else really thinks these skills are IMBA, then they must have a good explantion as to why they think so... so let's hear them...

Wasteland Squidget · May 31, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Its so powerful because it lasts so long. Reducing duration would make the condition itself less powerful.

Here in reality, conditions get pulled fairly often, and a spammable condition is always more valuable than a long-duration condition because of that.

Of course, long-duration Daze is dangerous if you can't pull it, but short-duration spammable Daze is dangerous even if you CAN pull it. Ensign's change would allow a single ranger to easily overpower RC + Draw with dazespam, because the second Daze would hit before you could pull the first off the Draw guy.

Melody Cross · May 31, 2007, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Here in reality, conditions get pulled fairly often, and a spammable condition is always more valuable than a long-duration condition because of that.

Of course, long-duration Daze is dangerous if you can't pull it, but short-duration spammable Daze is dangerous even if you CAN pull it. Ensign's change would allow a single ranger to easily overpower RC + Draw with dazespam, because the second Daze would hit before you could pull the first off the Draw guy.

Its funny you say that. It didn't look like Ensign reduced the recharge to make them perma conditions. It looked like he only suggested that the uptime be dropped.

And, in reality, the ability for a ranger to throw Dazed on one monk and then sit on the other with interrupts filling the rest of his bar is exactly why I've always felt Dazed was overpowered. A frenzy warrior can handle the rest of the shutdown at that point for the Dazed monk.

With Dazed in its current condition, if you don't bring an off-monk draw or RC, you're dead. You can't just retreat if your condi removal gets distracting shotted...and a Dazed applying ranger will know thats your next skill if you're the non-dazed monk.

But like I said: I haven't played in a while, so you may be right.

GGs

Thom Bangalter · May 31, 2007, 03:39 AM // 03:39

since players are always like, "LOL HAEV SUM SIRLIN" I figured this might be useful:

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...lancePart1.htm
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...lancePart2.htm

oh guild wars is good because its more balanced than other MMOs? there's a deeper issue at hand; sure its more balanced than other MMOs, but in terms of a competitive game there are some issues brought up int his thread that need to be addressed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NubtrashGuy

They should have a PvP nerf and a PvE nerf, to stop people complaining.
discuss

probably a good idea, but there's no skill here being balanced that would kill pve, the searing flames change would actually be perfect balance for the skill in both places (longer burning=more searing flames hitting for damage=more overall damage on clumped up mobs=better skill) and none of the other skills mentioned are really used that much in pve. (except for watch yourself, but they could always change leadership to only trigger on paragon shouts and leave the skill as is, because the pve carebear in me is gonna be sadface if WY gets hit).

Of course, some of the paragon skills are tricky because as a single character on a team, paragons aren't that overpowered beyond defensive anthem, but they kind of need to take a hit due to degenerate builds with 3+ and soldiers defense monks, which is pretty ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Player

And that's the difference between whining and constructive posting. This post is whining, and if he or anyone else really thinks these skills are IMBA, then they must have a good explantion as to why they think so... so let's hear them...

did you read the original post, do you not play pvp, or are you an idiot? I'd really like to know. If you don't really understand why these skills are degenerate, you probably have no business posting in a thread about game balance, as you probably don't pvp enough to understand why these skills are degenerate. I'll walk you through some of them if you want, but you should probably just uninstall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squidget

Of course, long-duration Daze is dangerous if you can't pull it, but short-duration spammable Daze is dangerous even if you CAN pull it. Ensign's change would allow a single ranger to easily overpower RC + Draw with dazespam, because the second Daze would hit before you could pull the first off the Draw guy.

I realized he wasn't interested in changing recharge. Yeah, that's gonna be rediculous. Then again, KGYU is making a comeback, and maybe he just wants to get rid of Norad this way.

Guild Terror · May 31, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclear Eclipse

Actually I did read the thread... and the best explanation he offers to why they need to be nerfed is "they are garbage"... If anyone else posted a thread like this with no explanation, they'd be asked to explain themselves. So just because the letters of his name are black, doesn't mean he shouldn't provide an explanation either...

And that's the difference between whining and constructive posting. This post is whining, and if he or anyone else really thinks these skills are IMBA, then they must have a good explantion as to why they think so... so let's hear them...

its a list of skill they want nerf'd, simple explination is they are overpowerd skills
rather than them listing why, how about you list why not?

D Fault · May 31, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclear Eclipse

Actually I did read the thread... and the best explanation he offers to why they need to be nerfed is "they are garbage"... If anyone else posted a thread like this with no explanation, they'd be asked to explain themselves. So just because the letters of his name are black, doesn't mean he shouldn't provide an explanation either...

And that's the difference between whining and constructive posting. This post is whining, and if he or anyone else really thinks these skills are IMBA, then they must have a good explantion as to why they think so... so let's hear them...

Just a few things you should be aware of.

1. Ensign has a long history of making constructive posts and is well known by the pvp community.
2. Ensign probably knows more about how the game works than anyone bar the devs.
3. The skills are garbage. Its obvious they are garbage, and the recommendations Ensign made should show pretty well why.
4. If you don't think Ensign got it exactly right, feel free to post why like the other people in the thread have been doing, instead of just saying stop whining.

Ensign · May 31, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The (substantial) nerf to Wearying Strike is effectively a Melandru nerf. I don't think it needs to be hit harder than that.

I think Avatar of Melandru is actually good for the game. It gives the Dervish the kind of resilience it needs to really make some cool plays at times...on the other hand, the fact that the tree gets to hit Eviscerate (except it crits for 118 instead of 91...that makes it worse than the best Axe elite?) every 8 seconds, period, no adrenaline to be built or anything, is ridiculous. How that skill has managed to avoid getting hammered something fierce all this time, I have no clue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Too short for what it does and the character it was designed to work with.

Great. Buff it some other way. Or let it sit next to Swap, I really don't care. Guild Wars without the skill Recall in it is a better game than Guild Wars with the skill Recall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

An armor buff to sins would be required or it'd be early Factions all over again

Are we talking about PvP or PvE here? Sins have actually picked up a lot of defense since early Factions - Feigned Neutrality being chief amongst them. The problem with Assassins back then, from a PvP perspective, was a lack of good attack combos, and that's largely been fixed by updates in the meantime. Assassins are strong enough now that you even see 8v8 Assassins on occasion (the iPod Death Blossom guy being the coolest one in recent memory). So I don't think that's a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Other than that, I like this list. Any changes for Necro Elites?

Not beyond Reaper's Mark. Necros have one of the deepest sets of elites to pick from TBH. Reaper's just overshadows all the other hex elites, and good non-hex elites don't have good characters to go with them for the most part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Nebula

Nerf the burning arrow build.

Why? What's overpowered about it?

If your point is that there isn't enough diversity in Ranger bars, I agree. But that's a symptom of a ton of really bad skills, not of a few really overpowered skills. If you got rid of Burning Arrow, Apply Poison, and Natural Stride, you wouldn't be opening the way for other Ranger skills, you'd be removing Rangers from competitive play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclear Eclipse

and the best explanation he offers to why they need to be nerfed is "they are garbage"

How about this then - the reasons for these changes have been discussed to death on various message boards, on IRC, in game, in vent, everywhere I've gone for the last six months. Explaining every individual change, when most of the people interested in this discussion will read a lot of the changes and just nod their heads, is not worthwhile. Hence, my expectation is that the changes that are non-obvious and worth discussion will be pointed out and discussed, and the obvious ones will be allowed to sit as obvious.

Note that there is a clear distinction between this, and "whining". "Whining" is an ambiguous voicing of dissatisfaction, without even a hint of a proposed solution and usually with the connotation of 'someone else figure out how to solve my (ill-defined) problem. What I posted here was a list of solutions, without neccessarily defining the problem (though the proposed solutions do imply what I perceived the problem to be). So in fact this thread is the exact opposite of whining - minimal complaining, maximum solutions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

It looked like he only suggested that the uptime be dropped.

I originally had a "15e" next to Concussion Shot. That was slipped in there during editing when I thought, 'gee, 4-10s Daze on Concussion Shot would make a weak skill really, really bad'. Of course that was a substantial buff, and that has its own implications that are beyond the scope of this thread.

Hence, the edit. Slag Concussion Shot, fix it later.

Peace,
-CxE